My new package is doing a great job drawing out the foundationless frames!
This was my first hive check of willow, after installing the package on April 14th and removing the queen cage a few days later. I’ve been so excited to look at this hive, the waiting has been hard. This is my first hive using foundationless frames.
There are many reasons to go foundationless, and here are a few: the bees prefer to draw foundationless comb; they will build natural size comb instead of the size the foundation dictates; natural size comb is supposed to help control varroa mites; and the most important reason to me, natural comb drawn by the bees does not have chemical contaminants in it. Commercial foundation contains chemicals in it from beekeepers using mite products and other pesticides in the hive. Those pesticides accumulate in the wax that is melted down and molded into foundation or put onto plastic frames. Foundationless frames use all or mostly wax that is made by the bees themselves, avoiding these contaminants. These reasons and more suggest foundationless comb is healthier for the bees.
However, I have never seen someone in person using foundationless frames in a langstroth hive with deep size frames (but you can find people online who are doing so). When I approached several beekeepers I knew and respected, they advised me not to try it because the bees will make a mess of things and it will be too hard to extract honey without the comb falling apart. Maybe they are right, but I really wanted to try it anyway and so this experiment began.
After I read all about foundationless frames on beesource, Linda’s Bees and Michael Bush’s website, I took a webinar and emailed Michael Bush (who is very nice and helpful) and other people about the methods to go about using them, because there are many. I decided to wire the frames completely and also use a wax starter strip which I cut from foundation without wire. Wiring the frame gives the wax more strength against breakage, and the starter strips give the bees a guide for the direction to build the comb. I wedged the strip into the top bar in the same way a full frame of wax foundation would fit inside. This is what my frames looked like before I put them in the hive.
I was all set to start the hive with 10 frames like this, but after speaking to several other beekeepers, I instead decided to alternate between frames of foundation and foundationless frames. This would help guide the bees toward the right direction of comb building. Needless to say, I was both nervous and excited to see what the bees would do with the configuration I gave them.
To my amazement they are doing absolutely incredible and better than I ever expected! They are drawing the foundationless frames correctly. In just 12 days time, they have started working on 8 frames and just about finished 6 of them. There is also capped brood in the hive. Since it takes 9 days to cap worker larvae, this means the queen was released and started laying after being in the hive 1-3 days. That is amazing!
Here’s what the foundationless frames look like when the bees start working on them (2 frames looked like this).
A foundationless frame the bees just started filling with wax.
Here’s what the frames look like when they are almost complete (2 frames looked like this).
Foundationless frame almost complete.
The bees built all this wax and they have almost filled the entire frame.
There is a lot of larvae for a new package, lots of pollen, and even some capped honey. I’m feeding them but they are not taking the syrup. All this was built from their own collection of nectar. These bees and their queen are doing just awesome! Here’s a picture of her majesty.
The queen. Isn't she a beauty?
This hive is doing an amazing job building out both the foundationless frames and the foundation. I’m so proud of them! I can’t wait until the next inspection.
Do you use foundationless frames? What is your method? Let me know in the comments below.
Box Breakdown
Bottom Box – Frame 1 wired wax foundation (wwf) undrawn. Frame 2 foundationless frame (ff) newly drawn, being filled with nectar. Frame 3 (wwf) partially drawn, nectar and pollen. Frame 4 (ff) nectar, capped honey, larvae, eggs, pollen. Frame 5 (wwf) capped brood!!!! Eggs, larvae, nectar, pollen, capped honey and the queen. Frame 6 (wwf) capped brood!!!! Eggs, larvae, nectar, pollen, capped honey. Frames 7 (ff) nectar, larvae, eggs. Frame 8 (wwf) nectar and pollen. Frames 9 (ff) newly drawn. Frame 10 (ff) undrawn. Moved frame 9 to 10 and frame 1 undrawn foundation to 9. Moved frame 10 to 2. May need to super next week.
To see more detailed pictures and descriptions please view the gallery below. Just click on a picture then scroll through the slide show by clicking on the arrows. If you click on the picture the gallery will close. If you are viewing this in an email or reader you may have to read this post on the website for the gallery and descriptions to display properly. Enjoy!
Other Posts You May Enjoy:
- Three New Packages of Bees And Crocus Hive
- Picking Up The Package Bees
- Installing Package Bees In A Rooftop Hive Named Willow
- Bee Package Installation – Don’t Forget The Cork!
- It’s Queen Cage Removal Time!
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May 7, 2012 at 8:33 am
Pretty neat huh! It is neat how they work right around the wires. It is good to see others using foundation less. When someone asks you what cell size you are using you can say, “whatever size the BEES want!”
. Nice pics as usual….
I don’t believe the old addage that they build on foundation faster. I have seen some amazing rapidity on foundation less frames. This year I am experimenting with no starter strip. We shall see.
Make sure to keep your hives level on the hive stand. I learned the hard way.
May 7, 2012 at 8:54 am
Thanks Jason for the excellent advice! I did level the hive on the hive stand when I set it up. Let me know how your lack of starter strips works. Are you waxing the wood? Are you using the wooden frames that are angled in the middle? I’m curious how those work.
It is really fun watching them draw out the frames. It’s worth trying foundationless just for that!
May 8, 2012 at 12:18 am
Your bees are doing great! Most of my frames have foundation on them though some are just wire (but they now already have comb on them.) I am just in my second year so I am still learning. It is fun hearing how others are doing.
May 8, 2012 at 9:00 am
Thanks Abbi! There is so much to learn about bees, I’m learning new things all the time. They are amazing little creatures. Good luck with your bees.
May 8, 2012 at 11:19 am
Good to see this. We had tried before with wax starter strips, but with no success. My partner was beginning to think it couldn’t be done as the girls built out some crazy comb!!
We put one tentative frame in between built out comb just to see if we can get the girls to draw some out. I’ll let you know how it goes.
May 8, 2012 at 11:52 am
Good luck Mil! I hope it works for you.
May 12, 2012 at 1:09 pm
Very informative. We haven’t started with bees but I hope to add it to our homestead within the next couple of years. I just recently heard about foundation less frames. I have SO MUCH to learn. Thanks for sharing!
May 12, 2012 at 4:59 pm
You’re welcome Missy! If you are serious about bees I recommend you take a class and get a bee mentor. Having an experienced beekeeper there to help you is the best way to learn. Good luck!
June 4, 2012 at 9:09 am
We are new beekeepers this year and went foundationless using a wax starter strip. That’s a pain, though, so for the next round of frames we will be using popsicle sticks.
We see the best results when we alternate every-other-frame: drawn out frame, foundationless frame, drawn out frame, and so on… they build ‘em so fast & straight that way.
Nice photos!
June 4, 2012 at 9:29 am
Thanks! These bees are doing a great job with the foundationless frames too. I’m so proud of them! I didn’t mind doing the wax starter strips in the wedge top frames, they seemed to work just fine and were easier to make than the wired wax foundation frames. But I recently found out from Jason at LetMBee that you can buy foundationless frames and you don’t even need to put wax on them at all! The bees will draw them out without waxing them or using starter strips/Popsicle sticks. That’s what I’m going to try next time. Good luck with your bees!
March 14, 2013 at 6:31 pm
I am going to start foundationless in deep boxes..is it necessary for them to be wired? I know that would make them more sturdy, but it is my intention to leave what’s in the brood box for the bees and extract the supers.
March 15, 2013 at 7:28 am
I have tried both wiring and not wring deep foundationless frames and have both types of comb in my hives right now. Wiring them makes the comb stronger. I had a hive knocked over this past winter with both wireless and wired foundationless comb inside it. Every single foundationless frame that was unwired had the comb fall apart. The comb in the foundationless wired frames remained intact. So it is really up to you, but just know that wiring the frames provides the comb with an extra layer of support that unwired frames do not have. Maybe you should try a few frames both ways and see what you like better. The unwired frames are also more delicate and harder to inspect until the wax matures a bit, so you need to be gentle with them. Another thing is sometimes you may need to extract the brood frames even if you never intend to, from dead outs or a honey bound hive, so that is something to consider.